Weblog entry #2 for lykwydchykyn
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#2
So we all do servers... but workstations?
Posted by lykwydchykyn on Wed 12 Apr 2006 at 05:16
I run several debian servers at work and one at home, as I'm sure many here do; I also run debian or debian derivatives on my personal workstations, again like many of you do.
What I'm wondering is if anyone here has deployed debian or other linux workstations in a business, school, public, or similar environment, and what your experiences have been. How has it scaled? How have you dealt with requests for windows-only software? Is it less or more trouble for users, in the long run?
What I'm wondering is if anyone here has deployed debian or other linux workstations in a business, school, public, or similar environment, and what your experiences have been. How has it scaled? How have you dealt with requests for windows-only software? Is it less or more trouble for users, in the long run?
Comments on this Entry
Running about 60 Debian Workstations here.
We run Stable (Sarge) because I choose a stable environment. Furthermore, the projects we're working on demand a longtime stable situation. No sudden library-updates or new GCC every 6 months (a la Fedora Core or Ubuntu).
To complement Sarge, I use 3 techniques:
1) backports.org
2) debian-unofficial.org
3) homebuilt packages.
To scale, I use a local mirror. This works wonders.
To install Sarge on newer software, I use my Quick And Dirty 'install-from-knoppix-with-dbootstrap'-script. Just boot into knoppix, get my script, run it and 90% of the work is done.
To backport my own packages, I use pbuilder.
To config all Desktops, I use my own package: my-configs.deb. This installs and configures nis, sudo, NFS mounts, snmp, automounts, grub and severall other things. Works ok for me.
I recently discovered the Wonderfull World of Debconf, using 'debconf --get-selections' and 'debconf --set-selections' to do my configuring site-wide, instead of going outside of Debian and manually editing config-files.
Furthermore: All users have sudo-rights to run apt-get, allowing Knowledgable Users to install missing software.
And concerning Windows-only-software: we have 2 heavy-duty Windows Servers 2003 running Citrix. This allows users to run MS Office and Internet Explorer, amongst other things.
my 2 cents.
-- mverwijs
We run Stable (Sarge) because I choose a stable environment. Furthermore, the projects we're working on demand a longtime stable situation. No sudden library-updates or new GCC every 6 months (a la Fedora Core or Ubuntu).
To complement Sarge, I use 3 techniques:
1) backports.org
2) debian-unofficial.org
3) homebuilt packages.
To scale, I use a local mirror. This works wonders.
To install Sarge on newer software, I use my Quick And Dirty 'install-from-knoppix-with-dbootstrap'-script. Just boot into knoppix, get my script, run it and 90% of the work is done.
To backport my own packages, I use pbuilder.
To config all Desktops, I use my own package: my-configs.deb. This installs and configures nis, sudo, NFS mounts, snmp, automounts, grub and severall other things. Works ok for me.
I recently discovered the Wonderfull World of Debconf, using 'debconf --get-selections' and 'debconf --set-selections' to do my configuring site-wide, instead of going outside of Debian and manually editing config-files.
Furthermore: All users have sudo-rights to run apt-get, allowing Knowledgable Users to install missing software.
And concerning Windows-only-software: we have 2 heavy-duty Windows Servers 2003 running Citrix. This allows users to run MS Office and Internet Explorer, amongst other things.
my 2 cents.
-- mverwijs
[ Parent | Reply to this comment ]
Wow; sounds cool. I could probably spend a long time digging into your brain with questions, but I'll check out some of the things you mentioned (never messed much with debconf).
If you don't mind me asking, what sort of environment are you in? Are you dealing with pretty knowledgeable users in general, or do you have to deal with "johnny q user"? Where I work now we have about 500 users, most of whom barely know a computer from a toaster oven, and there have been rumblings from my boss about deploying some linux workstations someday. Part of me is thrilled to death with the possibilities, the other part is worried about how the users would respond.
BTW, what do you mean by a "local mirror" in this context?
If you don't mind me asking, what sort of environment are you in? Are you dealing with pretty knowledgeable users in general, or do you have to deal with "johnny q user"? Where I work now we have about 500 users, most of whom barely know a computer from a toaster oven, and there have been rumblings from my boss about deploying some linux workstations someday. Part of me is thrilled to death with the possibilities, the other part is worried about how the users would respond.
BTW, what do you mean by a "local mirror" in this context?
[ Parent | Reply to this comment ]
Thanks for the compliments!
About the mirror: I've set up a local Debian repository. My /etc/apt/sources.list reads:
That last entry is where my own packages, backports.org and debian-unofficial.org reside.
About the environment: I work at a spaceresearch facility that has used *NIX since the dawn of computing. My users vary from VAX-veterans to complete newbies.
The complete newbies work perfectly with what is given to them. Most of them know that clicking is good. Email, webbrowsing and wordprocessing are no problem at all.
The times that newbies do have trouble is when they're using some packages for data-analasys. These are written by the small community that spaceresearch is and tend to be very specific about their settings. Most packages are commandline-based and thus newbies tend to panic.
The biggest trouble I have are with Knowledgable Users that have had their way of working since before I was born, and want me/Debian to conform to their non-standards. Folders in the wrong places, symlinks all over the place, source-installed-packages overwriting Apt, rpm-installed-packages on Debian (no, not using alien). The list is endless, but slowly I've managed to ween them of some of their bad habbits.
So my advice: handpick the newest newbies of the lot and give em Debian. Make sure you understand most of the software they are likely to use, and let them enjoy their computer experience.
About the mirror: I've set up a local Debian repository. My /etc/apt/sources.list reads:
deb http://mirror.local/security sarge main
deb http://mirror.local/debian sarge main contrib non-free
deb http://mirror.local/oursite sarge main
That last entry is where my own packages, backports.org and debian-unofficial.org reside.
About the environment: I work at a spaceresearch facility that has used *NIX since the dawn of computing. My users vary from VAX-veterans to complete newbies.
The complete newbies work perfectly with what is given to them. Most of them know that clicking is good. Email, webbrowsing and wordprocessing are no problem at all.
The times that newbies do have trouble is when they're using some packages for data-analasys. These are written by the small community that spaceresearch is and tend to be very specific about their settings. Most packages are commandline-based and thus newbies tend to panic.
The biggest trouble I have are with Knowledgable Users that have had their way of working since before I was born, and want me/Debian to conform to their non-standards. Folders in the wrong places, symlinks all over the place, source-installed-packages overwriting Apt, rpm-installed-packages on Debian (no, not using alien). The list is endless, but slowly I've managed to ween them of some of their bad habbits.
So my advice: handpick the newest newbies of the lot and give em Debian. Make sure you understand most of the software they are likely to use, and let them enjoy their computer experience.
[ Parent | Reply to this comment ]
I've done about 20 Debian installations for home users in the past year or so. It's mostly been folks with older hardware, mostly 233-700 Mhz machines, that can't/won't run winXP and don't want to spend a couple of hundred dollars for a winXP cd. The win9x systems they had worked poorly and were near end of life.
i.e. They had perfectly good hardware, but their software was out of date, insecure, and unsupported.
I've also set up a few small business with Debian in various forms, mostly desktops and firewalls. I even set up a small LTSP network in a small office, which was a really cool project, and saved the proprietor thousands of dollars in hardware and software.
...Rob
The American Dream isn't an SUV and a house in the suburbs; it's Don't Tread On Me.
i.e. They had perfectly good hardware, but their software was out of date, insecure, and unsupported.
I've also set up a few small business with Debian in various forms, mostly desktops and firewalls. I even set up a small LTSP network in a small office, which was a really cool project, and saved the proprietor thousands of dollars in hardware and software.
...Rob
The American Dream isn't an SUV and a house in the suburbs; it's Don't Tread On Me.
[ Parent | Reply to this comment ]
Have you done a lot of post-install support for them, or just the install. I run linux on my workstations at home, but I don't know if my wife would be able to administrate it if I weren't around. So it makes me wonder how the average user does with linux over time. I know there's always a lot of talk about "linux on the desktop", but I wonder what the real-life experiences have been; what are real people experiencing with linux desktops?
[ Parent | Reply to this comment ]
Well, i did a debian install for a close friend of mine on campus (i'm still a college student) whos father installed winXP blindly and it ran horribly on her 733MHz Celeron machine. So I went debian stable for her, I believe at the time it was woody, and she actually enjoyed it more than Windows. I set her up with KDE hoping the similarities would be easier for her during the transition and within about a month she didn't like having to use the windows boxes on campus because they didn't work for her the way her debian box did, but I will credit alot of that the Desktop Environment because for everyday "not OS specific" uses, Gnome is where I wanna be and I have small annoyances about other desktop environment's attributes ... thus, to each their own. But the point of the story is that it went well and I think it would have gone just as well with many other Desktop Environments, I just assumed KDE would be best because of its initial likeness.
/me
-=:max:=-
/me
-=:max:=-
[ Parent | Reply to this comment ]
Have you done a lot of post-install support for them, or just the install
Honestly, that's the most beautiful thing about it - I haven't had to do _any_ post install support short of showing them how to use synaptic to install and update packages. I also set them all up with names from no-ip.com so I could get to them remotely if need be, but as of yet, I haven't had to remotely acces a single one of them. Aside from one machine's mouse going bad, the machines just work(TM).
...Rob
The American Dream isn't an SUV and a house in the suburbs; it's Don't Tread On Me.
Honestly, that's the most beautiful thing about it - I haven't had to do _any_ post install support short of showing them how to use synaptic to install and update packages. I also set them all up with names from no-ip.com so I could get to them remotely if need be, but as of yet, I haven't had to remotely acces a single one of them. Aside from one machine's mouse going bad, the machines just work(TM).
...Rob
The American Dream isn't an SUV and a house in the suburbs; it's Don't Tread On Me.
[ Parent | Reply to this comment ]